Lowest unemployment in a century, good news or bad news for Healthcare IT? We explore strategies for addressing the growing talent shortage. Also, my guest puts me on the spot with regard to recent Cyber changes in the Whitehouse. All this and more on This Week in Health IT.

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Bill Russell:                   00:01               Hey podcast listeners, thanks for listening. If you’re enjoying this week, can health it. We just want to give you some information on how you can support these conversations to keep them going. This weekend. Health. Its goal is to keep you your organization and your employees updated with the emerging thought and trends in the healthcare industry. Through our conversations with healthcare and technology leaders, the best and easiest way you can show your support is to go over to this week in health it on itunes and leave us a review. Also, you can subscribe on Itunes, Google play, or stitcher, or go over to our youtube page and subscribe and hit the notification bell. Again, we really appreciate you spending your valuable time listening to this podcast.

Bill Russell:                   00:51               Welcome to this week in health it where we discussed the news information and emerging thought leaders from across the healthcare industry. This is episode number 18. It’s Friday, May 11th. Today we’re going to talk about tackling the growing talent shortage within it. This podcast is brought to you by health lyrics. Changes everywhere in health healthcare it get a plan for agile, efficient, and cost effective. It from people who’ve been in your shoes, get ahead of the wave. Visit Health Lyrics, time to schedule your free consultation. My name is Bill Russell, recovering healthcare cio, writer and consultant with the previously mentioned health lyrics. You know, healthcare is loaded with really good people, people who are on your side who are ready to be in it with you at, at, at, at a moment’s notice, um, and no one could have more than our guests today. Today I’m joined by David Months, principal at starbreeze advisors. David, welcome to the show.

David Muntz:                01:44               Thank you. Appreciate it. The opportunity is really nice.

Bill Russell:                   01:47               Yeah. I think sometimes you know, you’re, you’re such a luminary, you’ve been around for so long and people will think that maybe you’re unapproachable, but you are clearly one of the most appropriate people. See you at a conference or whatever. They should just walk up and introduce themselves and you’re one of the most approachable people and willing to willing to help. And that’s what I’ve, I’ve really appreciated about you.

David Muntz:                02:08               Good. Well, I tell people the strongest ability. I have his availability around long enough. You get to have a lot of great experiences and I love sharing it. So thank you.

Bill Russell:                   02:19               Well, I’m looking forward to this, you know, with the, with the combination of our gray hair, we should have something done say for people who are familiar with you. Let me give you a little bit of a, of the bio here. So you began your career as a biostatistician or what? What exactly is a biostatistician?

David Muntz:                02:37               It’s somebody who takes statistics and in my case worked in the cancer leukemia research hospital and so I’m made a, the data speak and tell the story to the physicians taking care of the patients there.

Bill Russell:                   02:54               Wow. And so that somehow led you on a path to become a cio. So you became, uh, eventually became cio at Texas health resources for 15 years and then five years at Baylor healthcare system, I guess before the Baylor Scott and white,

David Muntz:                03:10               a merger activity was a really interesting, uh, you know, it’s always interesting to go through the merger and acquisition discussion.

Bill Russell:                   03:20               Yeah. So this latest round of m and a is not, you know, this has happened before and there’s a lot of experience out there around it. So in a. and so it gets really interesting year. So in 2012 he accepted a White House appointment, uh, to serve as the first principle deputy national coordinator, a chief of staff and cio at the onc. What, so for all of us who are wondering what’s it like to work in the federal government around healthcare?

David Muntz:                03:47               Well, financially it’s terrible. Every other aspect. It’s just fabulous. The fact is that it’s really like getting a crash course, uh, in an area where you really have no exposure experience before. And I’d done a little work in the state, uh, but nothing to compare with the federal activities in working in health and human services where it’s really an honor because of the diversity of the activities associated with healthcare. And we talk about the healthcare continuum and there is nobody who has a broader view of the continuum. Then hhs. And because I was a political appointee, I got to sit in the meetings where we discuss policy and it was fabulous to actually watch the formulation of policy, even though they say there are two things you should never watch is sausage making and policy making.

Bill Russell:                   04:44               I think because of their maybe cynical view of the government or legislature. One, I might think that, um, you know, these aren’t the smartest people in healthcare, but they are some of the, I mean, some of the things that people are doing at the government level in terms of biodefense and cybersecurity and policy. These are some of the smartest people in healthcare. Uh, and we just don’t operate in the limelight. So we just don’t see them all that often.

David Muntz:                05:11               It’s very true. And the fact is that these people feel a passion for what they do. They’re public servants in the kindest way that you can take that word. And my servant hood is, is how they live. And you know, I had a secretary who was a lawyer, an assistant who was a work for me, who was also a, had a mba and was a CPA. And so people doing just normal jobs have these extraordinary credentials, but everyone of them shared a big heart and dedication and it’s the permanent staff there that makes the government work well. So now when people say it’s good enough for government work, I always correct them and government what work with some of the most ad sitting now whether or not you agree with what the decisions are is another issue. But the one thing I would like to say to people is the reason I went to the government is if you don’t like what’s doing what, what’s happening? Need to express yourself or you need to join and help try to make the changes from inside. There aren’t enough people there who have experience in health it. And I think that was the advantage that I brought to the position.

Bill Russell:                   06:25               Yeah, I hear that a lot of people go, well I don’t want those people making decisions. And you know, mum is a great example. You know, that stuff’s out there for comment right now. So comment.

David Muntz:                06:38               That’s how I got there. I used to raise my fist and go, what are you thinking? And I got a, and I was on the board at John in charge of policy at the time, assisted bow, by the way, one very brilliant I house, but I was always the one that would do the final editing. And so I communicated frequently my displeasure with the programs and what I wanted to bring to the government rules, a practical and pragmatic approach.

Bill Russell:                   07:04               And when you raise your fish, they assume that you’re raising your hand. So when they say like, Hey, that guy has his hand up.

David Muntz:                07:14               I continued writing my immediate.

Bill Russell:                   07:16               So a cio network, a member of the board of directors, uh, they’re still. And uh, also a board of a Hema. Um, tell us about that work a little bit. So you were there for three years or you’re currently there for three years?

David Muntz:                07:34               No, I’m not finished. Just a middle of the

Bill Russell:                   07:40               no chime. They get up there and talk about a Hema. Uh, he, uh, and I forget the other one sitting back going, oh, that’s way too many acronyms. So tell us a little bit about that.

David Muntz:                07:52               If you don’t like acronyms, have watched the government. The fact is that a Hema really is one of the largest organizations for healthcare and we think of them as the medical records group and they are far more capable than that. Uh, it’s some of the most dedicated people I’ve ever worked with and um, they are frequently unsung heroes when it comes to moving data around. So there’s nobody who really has a more independent view of what goes on in healthcare. Then the people who work in health information management. So it was a pleasure to be on the board there and what I kept pushing them to do was to be ill behaved and to try to get a chair at the table with the CIO. And I would love to see a greater partnership between the people and Angel.

Bill Russell:                   08:43               So get noticed, but do it in a respectful way.

David Muntz:                08:48               Absolutely. There are ways that you can say things with candor and kindness at the same.

Bill Russell:                   08:57               So you’ve, you’ve led a, you know, tons of great teams, uh, you know, it says here in your bio that, you know, at any given time, and people don’t recognize this as a cio, you oversee a lot of projects and, and you note here, you know, more than 180 project go lives annually and most people outside of our industry, which like that’s crazy. I can’t believe there’s that many, but those of us who have sat in that chair go, yeah, that’s about, that’s about the right number for the size of organizations you were doing.

David Muntz:                09:26               Just to give you some context, we used to say that a project is anything that involves one in 40 hours, give you a sense of it. So it could be something as large as a Ehr station are as small as an implementation. A departmental system.

Bill Russell:                   09:44               Yeah. So you were two times two different organizations, champs innovator of the year and uh, in 2014 Chai Chai and presented you with your cio legacy award. So, I mean, that’s a great bio and probably the most time I’ve spent on anyone’s bio, just so you know, I mean, there’s so much that, I mean, it’s like multiple careers here. I mean it’s, it’s, it’s very fast. Um, now one of the things we like to do with our cohost has given me an opportunity to talk about what they’re currently working on or what they’re excited about. So, you know, this, this is your couple of minutes to sort of share what’s going on.

David Muntz:                10:21               Farewell. After serving as a cio for a very long time, I decided it was time to come back to the text as a family and wanted to have a little more freedom in some consulting is how I started in. After starting my own company, I decided at the invitation of Sushi shade and risks related to join them and start start bridge advisors. And you know, only too well. And I’m sure every CEO in the country knows only too well, that there is far more demand than supply. And so the focus of our company is really to give additional bandwidth to CIS. And one of the things that’s fascinating, again, is what it takes to start up your own company as you know only too well. Uh, and so I’ve been engaged in activities that are designed to provide interim support, uh, to provide consulting services and also to do some coaching and mentoring in the idea is not that the cio isn’t capable of doing that or either cmi, Cmo or Cto, but, um, they don’t have the time to pay attention to all the things they wanted to. And as you noted from my resume, when we’re doing that many projects, you can’t pay attention to more than a handful. And so by the way, I was blessed in every organization but having wonderful employees around me and take care of them. And so the key to my, and by the way a very patient family, but I enjoy offering assistance to those people who just don’t have the time to do the work themselves.

Bill Russell:                   12:03               Two rooms this week with a different groups of ceos. And, uh, it’s interesting and we’ve highlighted it on the show. Some people come from a clinical background, some people come from a technology background, so people come from, neither just come from a business background and just know how to get the most out of people. Um, and the good cio is recognize when there’s areas where they’re, you know, they could use some help being on the clinical or, or the business side. And I know that people have brought you in on the business side a lot to say, you know, how do we handle this transaction? How do we handle this interaction with the federal government? Uh, given your background, I mean, you, you have some, some great insights into those things. So that’s, that’s where they pick up the phone and call starbridge and, and, uh, get you guys engaged.

Bill Russell:                   12:47               All right? So as you know, um, uh, you know, we, the social sort of format of the show is we talk about the news, then we do a little bit of a soundbite section where we put you on the hot seat and then we, we do social media close, which is just a little bit of fun to close out the show. So I’ll kick us off with the first story and you know, the biggest story from last week may not have been in healthcare, but it really does impact healthcare and that is uh, the US unemployment rate is now the lowest it’s been in the century, right. And um, it’s uh, it, it becomes a challenge for healthcare to find great talent and how bad is the labor shortage of Wall Street Journal had an article a few weeks ago that talks about cities will now pay people to move their cities, will pay people to move there.

Bill Russell:                   13:35               And I’ve had, I’ve had conversations with ceos where they said, you know, and we talk about all this really cool stuff and what you can do with lambda architecture, that kind of stuff. And they say there are no people in my city that understand the technology that you are talking about. We are going the Microsoft route. And that is a very valid. And actually pretty wise, a way to look at it is to say, what can I do with the talent I have not? What is the really cool and exciting thing that’s real right around the corner. So you know, these two stories provide us with a snapshot of what’s happening now and probably what’s going to happen over the next two to three years. So you know, whenever you have this kind of tax cut, we saw a major boom after Reagan to that massive tax cut and we’ll probably see just I’m an economics major just based on pure economics.

Bill Russell:                   14:27               We’ve just poured a ton of money into the economy and it’s like, it’s like a log on the fire. So for the foreseeable future there’s gonna be this talent shortage. And so let’s, let’s go back and forth on a couple things of how cio might think about this or just how people might. Let’s start with a kid’s going to college. I remember when I was going to college in Nineteen, whatever, 1980 something, but they were saying, Hey, get your computer science degree. And everybody did. And then when we came out everybody had a computer science degree and so there was an abundance. But what, what’s the, what’s that major? You’re telling college kids as they’re going in there, they say, I want to be in healthcare it, I want to be an IT technology summit way and I want to be in healthcare. What’s, what are those degrees that they should be pursuing right now? It

David Muntz:                15:19               really is a tough question to answer and everybody’s situation is different. But generally speaking, I say that there’s one thing that they have to concentrate on. That’s a scale that you need, no matter where you are going to be in whatever profession. And that is the ability to communicate verbally and that’s either orally or in writing. Um, that’s really number one on your list. So if you don’t come out with good communication skills, they won’t be able to sell yourself. You won’t be able to explain things and you’re just not going to be able to succeed. Um, but fact is that there are many different pathways into healthcare. And so I happened to be a premed major in college and in English with a minor in, of course nobody can see the straight pathway, but I love that that a country western song that says God blessed the crooked path straight to you.

David Muntz:                16:15               And so the real key is if you know that you love healthcare, the idea is to pursue something that compliments the activities that are going on in your area of interest. Now, my, I happened to be married to a nurse, the father of a nurse who married a nurse, the Nisa. So I’m very nerd friendly. So if I had to say something, it’s, you know, follow a clinical pathway. There is never going to be a lack of need for a health care professionals. And if you don’t mind me switching to attack that I used to use to fill positions and I was a strap for people who had clinical experience. I used to call the presidents of the organization together both at tea jar and Baylor healthcare system and say we’ve got this big, we’re going to kick off and I don’t have enough people with clinical skills.

David Muntz:                17:13               I’ve got plenty of people with technical skills, but when I’m going to do is I’m going to find who are the best people in each one of the areas where we’re implementing a software and I’m going to pull them onto the project team and if you don’t say, ouch, I haven’t found the right person yet. And so we would populate our projects with the best of the people in the clinical areas and generally speaking, once they got into healthcare it, it wasn’t touching one person at a time. It was touching hundreds or thousands of time and it was a drama over. So, um, I would say you don’t need as much technical skill as you need human skills.

Bill Russell:                   17:55               And John Wooden is quoted as saying the team with the best players usually wins. And so if you can gather those great leaders, that’s, that is always extremely helpful. Um, you know, the clinical side, we’re seeing more and more on the clinical side. People getting that clinical background and then making a, a, a move either towards analytics or towards data science or um, you know, just all, all areas within, within it. Because it’s, it’s fascinating to them how much, so they got into healthcare because they want to help people. They’re generally very caring people, high empathy, and we need more of that in it. Oh, have always needed more of that in it, but their, their understanding of clinical also helps them to be empathetic towards the other clinicians as we’ve rolled out some bad technology that has been designed by my technologists over the years. And so we get, we get a bad rap from time to time from the clinicians have, do you know how many clicks it takes to get this data?

Bill Russell:                   18:59               Why can’t we visualize the data in this way? And you know, having those clinicians there to, to, to ground us in terms of process as well as very attuned to the patient’s very attuned to the, uh, the consumers of healthcare and what they’re asking for as well. So that’s a, that’s a great, you know, typical technologists, I’m going to say analytics of if I’m talking to a college student, analytics will, will, will not steer you wrong. A data science is not going to steer you wrong anytime in the next decade. I don’t believe a ai programming is one of those things that I believe we’re going to need more of. We’re going to be teaching the machines how to think, how to process information. Um, you know, we, we’d have a digital vision, digital obviously machines or are hearing us now and we’re going to need people that can sort of build those new constructs for us and insecurity. I mean, we’ll get into security in your article that you shared. Um, there’s, you know, we’re, we’re at war right now. I mean, there’s a cyber war going on and uh, you know, need people to sign up for that. So, uh, you know, you gave us one of the strategies, uh, you know, give us some of the other strategies that ceos can employ to find the best talent.

David Muntz:                20:24               The approach that I’ve used that worked well was the summer intern activity. We used to beg, borrow, and steal to get into the budget enough money to do things. But you can take students from anywhere and everywhere. And to let you know, the only time that we brought on a student stay with us was one of them moved back to be close to her parents, but we used to get five to eight people every summer and grow our own. And the fact is the enthusiasm is really great quality to find in any employee and these people would start at the lowest level to get a good understanding. We put them with the help desk and that would give them a big exposure and a good test of patience, but would also allow them to see the diversity of needs president, have them do the,

Bill Russell:                   21:19               what are the steps to set up a good internship program. Because here’s when, when I went to St Joe’s, I was kind of surprised we didn’t have one within it. We were bringing out. We’re actually, we bringing high school students for one week over the summer. And that was, that was fascinating. That was great for my team. My team loved that week of working with those high school kids. But how do you put together a good, uh, program that’s going to appeal to undergraduates as well as graduate students to bring them in and expose them to healthcare?

David Muntz:                21:50               Truthfully, I have to tell you that my administrative assistant is the one who made this a success.

Bill Russell:                   21:56               We’ll have to have your administrative assistant on, Huh?

David Muntz:                21:59               She’s fabulous. Won employee of the year in the healthcare industry that I’m in Dallas. So I’m really telling you that she deserved the credit, but they’re, our enthusiasm for those kids to get it experiences is huge. And so the pool is very large, larger than you can possibly imagine. So I would call together my direct reports and their direct reports and we would scour through the resumes and um, you know, we, we made guesses at what would be good fits based on what they had experienced and what they put down mission and goal in life. Uh, and we really didn’t focus as much on the technology things as we did again, on the soft skills, um, because if you hire the right person, they can pick up the technical skills. And um, again, having been very deliberate about the time, making sure that you have somebody administratively taking care of the program is a real key to that.

Bill Russell:                   22:58               Yeah. One of the things I love that our data team did was they started tapping into the Grad, the various graduates and even phd programs and we set up a way for them to access anonymized data within our system that they could, they could, uh, they were doing really neat things and part of that was almost a retraining of our, of our data team internally because they weren’t, they were coming face to face with the most and we were not an academic medical center so we didn’t have the access that most of that, at least an academic medical center would have to that, that level of academic rigor and whatnot. And so by partnering on that level, but we were seeing all sorts of new ways of visualizing data of really breaking it apart. So don’t just look at the college interns, you know, the kids with no money. I’m also, you know, try to figure out ways to tap into those phd programs because you know what they want access to healthcare, they want access to the data. It’s so benefits them to partner with a with a health system that has a lease their act together in terms of providing access to that level of depth within the healthcare organization.

David Muntz:                24:10               Just one more little trick or tip. We also would look at projects that were three to five months in length and we would go to a graduate schools just like you suggested, which I think is great and we would say, we have a fixed program that we want you to complete. Can you make this one of their senior projects and because of the remote nature now of work, it was easy to get that done and they actually had a real world deliverable that we would actually put into production at the end of the process. Now, we only did that a few times, but we were successful in each case.

Bill Russell:                   24:45               Well Great. I’ve been going along on the show the last couple of weeks, so I’m going to kick it to you for the next story and we’ll probably only spend maybe five minutes on the next door.

David Muntz:                24:54               Okay. I’ll try to speak a little faster withdrawals. One of the things that happened this week that I thought was very interesting was that Rob Joyce lift the white is the cybersecurity a chief and John Bolton is pushing to eliminate that post and that caused me a little heartburn and so I’m curious about what your reaction is to the White House taking. It’s a, if you will, off or changing its focus.

Bill Russell:                   25:24               Great. So you’re gonna ask me a political question. So I can’t. I’ve got to quickly steer this back towards cybersecurity in healthcare, but it wasn’t the right move. I don’t know. I, you know, but uh, here’s my gut. Cybersecurity should be handled by the military and homeland security. The reason I believe that is because it’s, it literally is a war. If you go in and look at your log files of who’s it did used to be that we would say it’s still true that I’m charge of cybersecurity incidents happen internally, so it’s your people that are actual trading data for whatever reason. And then, um, and in nation states was this little subsection of people that we’re trying to get into your data that has a not completely flip flopped, but that nation state attack has grown exponentially over the last, I would say two to three years and you know, most of the malware and stuff that we’re looking at today was developed.

Bill Russell:                   26:26               It was developed by governments. It’s not our government and you know, has fallen into the wrong hands. So I think it’s a military and a homeland security thing. So, you know, only in the federal government do we create a job and think it can never go away. Um, I, I don’t think we lose any focus. Uh, every branch of the now has the cyber command and the Cybersecurity, a group homeland security does, the FBI investigates. Um, so it’s not for lack of a cybersecurity focus. The question is how does that information and stuff get to the president and you know, there’s a secretary of defense, Secretary of homeland security, it could filter up through that. So if we were going to Reorg it like a business, we would look at it and go, that’s a redundant position. That’s, that’s my gut. I don’t want emails on politics or whatever. So let’s flip this to help it. So we were talking about how to Reorg the government. How do you reorder it? So what’s the best way for it because that’s really the question, uh, what roles need to be in place in healthcare it in order to have a very good focus on cybersecurity and be able to inform and educate the board and the various things that need to happen. I mean, what’s, what’s the best. I’m turning this right back on you. What’s the, what’s the best organization in a way to get ready for that?

David Muntz:                27:49               This is an interesting time and people say that they want the cybersecurity people reporting up to compliance or to the board itself and to take it away from the cio. And I’m, I’m not so sure that I agree with that. Uh, and the reason is that they’re the people who are wonderful at cyber security. You have to be a little bit paranoid and paranoid is not based on a false concerns. It’s based on a reality, um, but they’re always just this balance that you need to make. And so the question is, who’s the best risk manager in your organization? Uh, and if the CIO can play that role, then cyber security should probably report to them. The reason I suggest the CIO is because probably they speak some form of cyber security probably more effectively than many of the other groups that have been typically assigned is we’re making reassignments of cybersecurity. So I still think the CSO should have a reporting relationship to the CIO. And I think if that’s not the case, there should always be a cio and cso in discussions where you’re trying to make decisions about how to take care of the cybersecurity, uh, or, or actually all of the it assets that you have responsibility for. And it’s the trade between access and security that always is the most difficult thing to assess.

Bill Russell:                   29:23               Yeah. I’ll give a little different spin on that in that when I came into St Joe’s of all the security reported up through me and one of the first things we did is we hired a chief security officer, not a chief information security officer, chief security officer who had a digital background and that compliance, so oversaw physical security. I mean, you name it, a building security as well as a really compliance around information security, which was interesting. So I now had a peer who, uh, you know, the two of us would always go together to the board and present because he would present, hey, here’s the, here’s where we’re at. And I would talk about the very specific minutia of, okay, you know, here’s, here’s the investments that is going to take, here’s what we’re trying to defend against. And those kinds of things. I would be very focused on, um, on cybersecurity and, and so we sort of tag team there.

Bill Russell:                   30:20               The thing I liked about it was he was very focused on education and quite frankly, the biggest risk we have is 23,000 employees clicking on an email, giving away their credentials, reusing passwords and externally and that kind of stuff. And so, uh, you know, that that element of the training and education, he was focused on every day. So I, I think cybersecurity, the most CSOS I’ve met are really strong technically, but when you talk about influencing an organization, they almost need to be at the c level in terms of how do you drive education programs and those kinds of things. So, so we had a little, I don’t know if it’s different, but we had a little different bent on it. Uh, you know, we, we stole a guy from md Anderson and uh, and he became our chief security officer and he was phenomenal. Um, and, and a great partner for me and a pain in the ass, but anyway, but, but that’s a role. His role was to get in my face and say, we’re not making enough progress in these areas. How are we going to move the needle? He never said, this is how I want you to move the needle. He would say, how are we gonna move the needle in these, you know, he had a, you know, 10 different areas that he was measuring across for us.

David Muntz:                31:40               I love that idea. I think security at that level makes perfect sense. So good model.

Bill Russell:                   31:46               Yeah, there was, there’s a lot of different ways to do it and uh, you know, I’m sure people have different models. So, um, alright, we’re going to, we’re going to jump to the soundbite section and I have one, I have five questions for you and I’m just gonna ask the question. You get about two minutes to answer and we’ll, we’ll just move on. I’ll try not to comment on your, your answers. So given your government background, assuming there’s no changes, that it goes through the comment period and no changes, what do you think the impact of the new program promoting interoperability is going to be on healthcare?

David Muntz:                32:20               Not Enough. The reason is that we keep pushing interoperability that’s based on patient managing and um, I think except for patient except for actually positive person than edification, all the pieces that we need are already in place in the private sector. So I had pushed for a private sector approach to this, um, but I think having the onc push for inner operability is really important. Uh, I would like to see them look for a bow combination of bowel metrics in a user selected identifier like we use with every other product that we have, for example, email, facebook, whatever, uh, to be able to help identify those naked and unconscious people who show up in our eds. I’m not to mention the people who come through the front door but have very common sharing names.

Bill Russell:                   33:17               Great. I’m going to hold myself to not commenting on that. So there’s a lot of ways we can, we can approach interoperability. So that’s, that’s, that’s fascinating. Okay. So you’re a part of a group that’s looking to hire a new cio. So you guys do interim cio placements. I was starboard. So you’re looking to hire a new cio. I’m now putting you on a board for health. What are the three most important attributes you’re looking for in your next cio?

David Muntz:                33:43               Well, we happen to be comprised of people who have a lot of experience and so I’m always interested in people who have experience in depth. Um, so that’s one, but diplomacy a is probably the other end under deponent’s am cheating because under the he, I’d make a list of characteristics including communications, empathy, etc cetera. Uh, I would, uh, think are associated with diplomacy and the other really is optimism, which underneath it would have energy as well. So those are probably the three things that are most important to me. And ultimately, by the way, as you, as you know, do well, every word kinship is based on good chemistry. You have to be able to do is look at that combination of characteristics, make sure that the profile of the organization is consistent with the profile of the individual who you might be putting forth as a candidate.

Bill Russell:                   34:43               I had an article I wrote on House with some Cio’s about hiring the best cto candidate. I had the five c’s in order to derive hitched to that article, you’ll have to go to a health system cio and see what the five cs were that I gave. So. So you have a unique perspective here. I’m going to a little twist on a question I asked you earlier. So you’ve worked with the health systems, a private sector, you’ve worked in the public sector at onc, you’re talking to a college student who wants to have an impact on health care. Which direction do you point them in? Do you point them into the private sector or do you point them into the public sector or you know, or what attributes of the person would point you have helped you to guide them in either direction?

David Muntz:                35:22               It depends on whether you want to work on a micro or macro level really. And ultimately if you’re interested in the macro, I think the government is a great place to work. Um, I would suggest that you have experienced before you’ve done with the government, so I’d push you toward the micro. Um, the fact is that policy made with that experience and pragmatism is not necessarily going to work. It would be surprising if it does and so you know that practicums, pragmatism and practicality is critical, so head toward the private sector first, then when you’ve gotten to the point where you can make a contribution, policies are a great place to join. And by the way, you can make policy on the local level, the regional level, the state level and the national level, which is actually exactly what I did in my career.

Bill Russell:                   36:13               Right. And so working in either doesn’t break you for the other. If you spend too much time in the private sector could still go to the public or spend a bunch of time in public, you can still go into the private.

David Muntz:                36:23               Yes. And the important thing is to maintain that optimism regardless to direct youtube.

Bill Russell:                   36:29               Yeah. You seem to have the right temperament for both, for both. So what is something that they, omc does for healthcare that may surprise healthcare leaders?

David Muntz:                36:38               Yeah. You know, the, the thing that people don’t really associate with ELNC is their laser like focus on making sure that data is available to patients and providers and what they see is, oh, they’re just in here to regulate features, functions and to provide some money and that is not why onc exists. Oh, NC wants to make data accessible and the products that are out there don’t always make that so easy. Hence the reason I’m. So that’s part of the reason that you’ve seen that and you need somebody who’s still passionate about interoperability. Lead that effort.

Bill Russell:                   37:20               Yeah. That’s great. So a project go lives. I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you this question. You’ve had some level of success because if you’re, if your first 10 failed, they don’t let you do 180. Give us, give us a handful of things that, uh, that health it can learn from your success. So we want to replicate your success over 180 project. Go lives. What would you tell us?

David Muntz:                37:45               Sure. I would say it really gets down to the man management. No matter what else you’re doing, you have to have a very strong governance process.

Bill Russell:                   37:55               So you’re controlling the funnel.

David Muntz:                37:57               Exactly. And one of the end you have to, part of the reason for governance is not just to control the funnel, but get the people engaged in the south. I’m never led a governance committee, uh, I want to use, would set it up, do the, all the work that had to be done and take care of all the administration, but the people who populated those committees were all from the operation side and we would always have a president who had some sway at one of the hospitals, chair the committee, and interestingly enough it had no vote on any of the prioritization or project approvals. And the idea was the operations is earning the money to operations is doing clinical work. Operation should make the decision about what the priorities should be and the order in which things should be done. Our job was to talk about what made sense and there are some dependencies there.

David Muntz:                38:54               Um, but having brilliant people working for you as I have enjoyed my entire career is the key. But I can’t tell you how powerful it is to ask people what they want and then let them make the decisions. The challenge we all have, is it people, is that when I did surveys of people who had the same kind of discipline that we did, and we’re tracking numbers are the lowest a demand. A supply ratio was five to one. If people were. Sometimes it’s 16 to one. So the idea is you cannot enter. There is no, I attributed those to coach. No coach ever said this, but it sounds like something that coach would stay in. I used to tell my staff all the time, you need to focus on this. We can do anything. We can’t do everything. Uh, and you have to be able to have to say no and you don’t create a backlog in that process. You say, I’m going to do this year and I’m going to ask you again another year what you want to do for the next 18 months after that. Um, so that you don’t have this heavy weight on the staff of it or the organization. And because things change, as you know, every day in healthcare and priorities will shift from year to year.

Bill Russell:                   40:10               Great Wisdom and advice in that area.

David Muntz:                40:15               Advertising. Sure. The Gardner article that was published about what we did at Baylor, if you want to see in a lot more detail what it is that was talking about,

Bill Russell:                   40:26               is there a. is there a title for that article?

David Muntz:                40:29               A Baylor healthcare system offers strong example of a PMO is ability to help healthcare systems manage high it demand.

Bill Russell:                   40:37               Wow. Here’s the answer. Well, we’ll definitely have to pull that article up and reference it in the post. So we’re at the close of the show. We close with our favorite social media posts for the week. Uh, I’ll go first. So this past week I got to attend the inaugural health conference at the Aria in Vegas. There’s interesting, there’s about 40,000 people there. It was highly tech centric in terms of just the all around innovation and those kinds of things are pretty well attended. Very well run conference. So I dunno, I dunno, I dunno if I’m recommending it, but I’m saying it was, it was fascinating. Good speakers, uh, David Feinberg, CEO of guys here did the keynote and he had this quote and he said, quote machine, I love people like this. So at geisinger health we have 13 hospitals. I think my job is to close all of them.

Bill Russell:                   41:28               I know that if we use proven and behavioral techniques to get us healthy, half of the 2000 beds I’m responsible for would not be there. I’m just an interesting approach. Is the same guy who said, uh, you know, we want to get rid of the waiting room and all that it represents, you know, think about those quotes there. There, I, I don’t think that’s a, uh, an announcement that we’re going to get rid of every hospital in geisigner, but it’s saying we can do better at keeping people out of the hospital and that should be our focus. So it’s very interesting. Um, so do you have one?

David Muntz:                42:03               The one I would suggest that you look for is something that Jonathan Perlin, who is the Cmo at hta, talked about was the virtual virtuous cycle and how that was related to analytics and what they had done to work on a bloodstream infection. So just fascinating and he’s one of the most brilliant, eloquent speakers I know. So I. Twelve worthless.

Bill Russell:                   42:29               Well, thank you. Thanks for confirming that you are a nerd. We appreciate it.

David Muntz:                42:36               I’ve got my pocket protector,

Bill Russell:                   42:39               a biostatistician to cio. What’s the commonality you love? You love getting down into the minutia of, of how, how things work. So thanks. Thank you again for coming on the show. So give us an idea of how people could give people, follow you on social media at all.

David Muntz:                42:55               Sure. I do have at David months tweet twitter handle and then uh, as part of garbage advisors there’s an ad starbridge health it or hit a that we use. And I tried to push people to a starbucks [inaudible] dot com where we highlighted this week that was one of the top 50 women in healthcare. I’d not in place for her to be very proud of what she’s accomplished.

Bill Russell:                   43:24               Absolutely. A former formerly on the show and I’m sure we’ll be. Again, I’m looking forward to having her back on the show. So, uh, so awesome. You, you can follow me on twitter. The patients at the patient’s Cio of my writing on health health Erik’s website. I noted health system CEO picks up an article every other week. Uh, don’t forget to follow the [email protected] If you like the show, please take a couple seconds to leave a review on itunes or Google play. And, uh, we are now up over 100 videos on this week in health it.com/video. And that will take you to our youtube channel. We every show we cut into one, two, three minutes segments about five or six a week and we put those out on social media and we put them up on the show. So we’re going to start organizing those by topics, uh, the role of the CIO, a Ai, data analytics, those kinds of things so we can, so people can get more out of the channel itself. So, uh, last thing I want to say is if, you know, if someone you’d like to have us have on the show, please let us know, just send us on one of the social media platforms and just direct message me and uh, you know, I’m always open to that and I’m always curious as to who people recommend. It’s fascinating to me. Um, and please come back every Friday for more news, information and commentary from industry influencers.

David Muntz:                44:49               That’s all. I have one last word. Make sure that all of us to appreciate your thought leadership, but I get a chance to say thank you for what you’ve done for the industry.

Bill Russell:                   45:00               Thanks. I appreciate that. And I will give you the last word that’s all for now.


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